Rollacoaster

FRANCESCA AMEWUDAH-RIVERS: Thank you so much for your time because I know you’re in the middle of press, press, press.

ARSEMA THOMAS: I’m so excited, this is great, it couldn’t have been a better match…I’m such a massive fan of yours. So it’s really an honour.

FRANCESCA: Oh stop! How have you been? Did you have your shoot today?

ARSEMA: I’m literally on my way to it right now. How have you been?

FRANCESCA: It’s been a good day today, the sun is out, I’ve just been reading so much which is such a blessing because it means I’ve had the headspace and the time to do it. It’s the simplest and smallest of things that I’m trying to lean into now during this period of coming back to myself. It’s been a hectic year. I’m taking the time to process the beginning, middle and after. I’m trying not to feel ashamed about taking that time, you often feel like you have to keep going but I’ve forced myself to press the pause button to assess what my mind and body needs…and right now, it’s radical rest. My brain is fighting against it, though.

ARSEMA: I think we’ve been so programmed to think that the moment we stop doing something it’s a bad sign…but the body knows it feels good. Listening to the body over the mind is the hardest thing to do—especially in this time period.

FRANCESCA: It’s also the nature of the work that we do and the intensity of it while we’re doing it. There’s not just an ending of routine but there’s an ending of relationships, the end of understanding of yourself in the context that you’ve been living in. It gives you an existential spiralling. But you’re right, it’s important to listen to your body, and that’s been one of my biggest learning curves. I’ve really been forced to look inwards to understand myself and the world and how that impacts how I move through this life, what I will do about it, where is my agency to re-educate myself in what it means to be successful. Especially as a Black woman in this part of the world, I’m thinking how can I re-shape my understanding of the space that I’m currently occupying.
ARSEMA: I’ve always thought that the most difficult job is being an actor while being a Black woman. Because it already feels like there’s this performative aspect that we are forced into outside of the job. So being pushed into it can be draining and hard—especially when the material is almost a mirror image of the way the world works. It’s a constant reminder of how we are valued, looked at or seen by others. Our stories are the first that get compromised to fulfil that gain of capital. It should be studied.

FRANCESCA: Yeah, it requires a lot of mental agility—and it shouldn’t. It’s work, it’s a job, you’ve been employed. And you’re already having to balance the insecurities around, “Can I do the job?”, while also trying to navigate what comes with being a Black woman. It’s exhausting. It’s also difficult to explain to people when it’s not their reality. Speaking to someone like you, I feel very galvanised and humbled to be able to have that conversation. What’s helping me continue my job and getting me through this period is community. It’s knowing that we are not alone, there’s a community of people just like us. I feel forced to push against the conditionings that often make us feel isolated. I find myself feeling like I have to “stay in my lane” and to not look around at others. I still have that immigrant mentality of survival. Our parents and grandparents had no choice but to make it work. And I can see the ways in which I have adopted that mentality. But it’s this community that makes me realise there is strength in numbers outside of myself, and that is beautiful. We’re part of a legacy. I might feel like I’m alone in these thoughts, but I’m not.

ARSEMA: It’s true and it’s crazy. There’s so many times I’ve been in a room and I’m like, “Women and Black women in this industry who are older than me are saying the same things that I rant to my friends about.” And I’m like, “Wait a second. Here I am thinking I’m the first to have this thought.” It’s one, an indicator of how strong the system is in trying to divide us and tell us that to complain is to be crazy and that we should be grateful for the opportunities we already have or to have a space here, but two the fact that if we knew this was happening to all of us, we’d have the power to demand more for ourselves—because we’d be demanding as a group as opposed to an individual. But to your point, I also feel quite humbled to speak with you. I watched the School Girls; Or, The African Mean Girls Play at the Hammersmith…

FRANCESCA: Oh my gosh, yeah. I remember bumping into you briefly at the press day afterwards like, “Hey Queen Charlotte!”
ARSEMA: Yes! It was so good and you’re AMAZING in it, like, comedic timing on point, it was a masterclass in acting in my honest opinion—no smoke. You’re such a dynamic person to watch, I could watch you act forever. Even though our interaction was so short I felt a protective element over you when things got a little bit weird. I just thought a lot of audiences don’t deserve what we do and what you do specifically, because it is one of the most bravest things to do. No, it’s not brain surgery and there’s not lives at stake, but we are part of something quite powerful. I just want to remind you that you are the gift. I need to remember this is being recorded before I start ranting…but you are so inspiring to me.

FRANCESCA: Thank you, it honestly means so much. In hearing you speak and in doing that play, the power that came from that show as a group of Black women telling that story together, and the care that went into the storytelling and understanding the weight of the material in engaging our community was crazy. We spoke a lot in the rehearsals about our experiences being Black women and to then be on stage and look out to an audience of Black people cheering us on was so special and magical. It made me think these are the kinds of shows I want to be a part of. This is the environment I want to lean into. The irony is that the shows are so charged and so powerful, but we’re not often afforded them—because there’s a fear of the potential that can come of them. I look back now and realise that whole experience was a gift. It’s really important for me to not take those things for granted. I actually felt the same watching Queen Charlotte. It was really moving to see representation in a way that felt authentic. It was varied, that world represented so many different forms of Blackness and topics around identity—yet the story was quintessentially human. I feel very privileged to be part of the industry now where there is progress slowly being made and people in positions of power can influence who gets what. It’s important that it comes from the top-down. There’s been things I’ve come up against in this job where I’ve felt like I’m battling for a space that feels safe. It felt like we were being held for what we represented without there being a space to talk about what was going on or what it meant to be the people that we are on stage in these kinds of productions. It’s a big lesson for me. That’s the beauty of collaboration, though. Everyone has to play their part.

ARSEMA: You’re right. I think for certain people, acting is a job. And I can tell as we’re speaking that for artists like you and myself, it’s not. It’s our MO to create liberation. So when the stakes are that high and when you’re wanting to do something for people outside of yourself, it’s like speaking in two different languages. For some, acting is their cheque, but the fact that you being in things means something – like a little Black girl watching you play Juliet and realising they can be something bigger – means so much more. Everything will feel different to you. But I am of the belief that God doesn’t put things on your plate to break you, it’s to make you stronger. We can handle it. But there does have to be this moment of translating because we’re not coming from the same spaces, it’s the thing about privilege that makes it difficult to explain to people. It’s a different career.

FRANCESCA: The stakes are higher. It’s not by accident that we’ve ended up here. There’s a lot of intention and it’s taken a lot to get to this point. Do you remember, because I know you studied at LAMDA, the moment you realised that this is what you wanted to do? Or had it always been there?

ARSEMA: That’s a good question. I’d always been attracted to the play aspect of the industry. I’d think this is a dream job where you just get to have fun. But it was specifically at LAMDA where I could tell by the material that I was getting in class or the way that I was being taught when I realised something strange is happening. I wasn’t getting the same level of education as my white counterparts. I didn’t think it was my fault. I was the thorn in my own side where I was trying to get them to change their curriculums and sources because I thought you can’t have the privilege of having Black actors in your institution without the correct resources to support us. You can’t just pepper us into it while thinking, “Well, we don’t have enough Black instructors or Black material, so you’ll just have to do this and that.” But then I thought, “Why, then, if we’re doing Chekhov, do I have to play the maid?”

FRANCESCA: Literally, like are we not all paying the same fee to get the same education?

ARSEMA: This is the thing. It’s already educating us to be complacent actors who will do any job they are “lucky” enough to get. It’s the moment that made it all click and made me feel like I was the problem: that I was ugly, unworthy. I realised everything would be for nothing if I entered the industry and became a part of that cycle. Every room I step into now, I make sure that I’m loud. There’s this narrative of, “When you get bigger or into a space of power, then you can create change.” But if that were true, it would have happened already…there are already many Black people in power. However long or short my career is, I will be true to myself every step of the way—and the people that believe in that will find me. That is the place I will be happiest in.

FRANCESCA: 100%. Your tribe will come to you.

ARSEMA: And they won’t know you’re there if you’re silent.

FRANCESCA: And that’s what the industry wants, they want us to be silent and to surrender to the status quo. Wow. You’re really amazing. This is radical stuff. Power to you and thank you for having this mindset because it takes a lot of bravery. It’s not easy, but it’s so vital. It allows people like me to see positive inspiration beyond accolades. It’s an ethos and a practice, so thank you. How do you manage press? Especially as we’re talking with this energy, how do you navigate other people’s agendas when you have something to say? When you’re promoting a project, it can be difficult to get your point across in that context—especially when it’s something you’re so proud of and is sacred to you. I watched the trailer for your new film, She Taught Love, and I was like… [clicks fingers] assignment understood. Black love…I’m here for it all day, every day. Black women, front and centre.

ARSEMA: You know, first: I appreciate that. This film has been a labour of love, and it was one of the few times where – and, for all intents and purposes, this is an independent film – I was doing things outside of my job description because of how much I believed in it. I talk about the guys, like Darrell Britt-Gibson who wrote it and Nate Edwards who directed it, because from the very beginning without me even having to prompt it, it was always about the fight of Black women. It had been suggested that my character be light-skinned, mixed-race or white, and Darrell was like, “Then I’m not going to make it.” And I thought, “This is the energy I need to bring into every room.” There are people doing it, they’re just being silenced. So for me with the press, I can act but I can’t lie, it’s been one of the most liberating things. Once that red light went on, I thought, “No one can tell me what to say. I can answer that question however I want.” Because I love the project so deeply, I can do press in a way that feels genuine. That’s been the way I navigate everything. If I don’t believe in something, I’ll say it. There has to be intentionality with the way we as actors work, there’s power in our voice. The moment we say, “I don’t think this thing should be made because it’s problematic”, people will listen. The idea of fame can blind us, a lot of us got into this job because we want love. And that was the reason I didn’t step into acting until later in life, because it really can suck you up and never spit you back out. But press is easier when your projects align with what you want to do. I would bend all the way backwards for it. How has it been for you?

FRANCESCA: What I’ve been struggling with is the focus on the abuse. It’s difficult to try and hold back and not speak on something that did happen. Racism is real, it’s a disease. It comes from a long history of the West, capitalism is built from slavery, so I know it’s going to take time to dismantle those structures. So I want to hold my experiences as something that has happened, which I’m still working through now, however, it mustn’t be sensationalised or used in a way that overshadows the beauty that came out of the job for myself and other members of the Black casting. It was tough, but we saw the importance of ourselves being in these spaces. Through all the abuse, it again brought me back to that communal actioning. We have to keep being visible in these spaces and keep educating people. I’m not the first Black Juliet. So we have to stay visible to undo that understanding. It’s the not having control over the narrative that has been difficult. Especially because it happened straight from coming into the job and throughout the job. It was something I had to navigate throughout rehearsals and the performances—and not being able to speak on it. I made my peace with that by putting everything into my character, that was my outlet at that time. Because when I came off stage, there was a flurry of noise. That being said, it was really hard to do. I’m trying to be selective with the press that I do and was very selective while I was doing the job—because my main MO was to get the job done. It’s difficult to be visible, I know it’s a public-facing profession, but I find it hard to be seen. I’m now trying to understand where that has come from and how can I hold the parts of me that find the profession difficult and also the parts of me that feel so compelled to be here. I’m learning a lot and I’m growing a lot. But shoots like the Rollacoaster shoot, I’m so excited for you because I feel like you’re going to have the best time, I had the BEST time. The team were so wonderful and so accommodating and I felt like everyone did their part to understand me as a person, as opposed to “the actor” or “the public image”, and that was really wonderful. So I think moving forward, I definitely want to try and be intentional with who I engage with so I can represent myself authentically. Fashion is also a beautiful way to do that, to bring light to a community, so I’m actually excited to see the final feature. It’s something I’m still getting my head around.

ARSEMA: I’m so excited too. It’s such an indicator of why you have come into this job. It’s to tell stories as opposed to being a celebrity or to get adoration, and it makes sense. At the end of the day, there was what happened and people’s reaction, which is such a small part compared to the fact that you did A PLAY. Why not talk about your acting and the performance you gave? I understand your feelings, it’s difficult for people to see us outside of our trauma—but most of the stuff that gets made isn’t about Black trauma. When people realise we are just as human as everybody else will be the moment that true racism dies. I’ve always thought if you de-humanise and water someone down from their three-dimensional form based on the colour of their skin, that’s racism. So the moments where you see characters or public figures and think, “You are like my daughter” or “You are like me”, then I think that system will crumble, fingers crossed.

FRANCESCA: As you said, there’s so much power in what we do. To be able to connect with our community is legacy building.

ARSEMA: I’m in the middle of reading Salvation by Bell Hooks, and I would highly recommend you read it. There’s something really empowering about it. The book was written in 2002, so even taking the inter-generational aspects of our conversations with older Black women in this industry, it’s crazy to think it’s still relevant in 2024. There’s always been this high standard or ability to clock what is wrong with the industry for a long time, but now we are learning to speak and demand for more…because someone else has already said – in an academic way, none the less – that this is wrong.

FRANCESCA: Absolutely. In my dressing room I had a lot of quotes from Audre Lorde and Maya Angelou hanging up. I read them every day to keep me afloat. It helped me remember we are walking in the footsteps and on the foundations that have already been laid. I feel like the title of your film is showing that too. I can’t wait to watch it.

ARSEMA: I’m so excited. We’ll have to do a follow-up so I can hear your thoughts. I feel like often there aren’t many films that are made for us to enjoy. Sometimes they’re about us, but it’s not for our enjoyment. I think it’s very important to know how we feel and think about it. Francesca, if you ever have any thoughts or questions, I am always around.

FRANCESCA: I have not been on socials for a long time—

ARSEMA: —That’s for the best! It’s all bad down there…

FRANCESCA: But I will get on them now just to speak to you again. Thank you.

ARSEMA: Thank YOU.